We don’t like to talk about it and when we have to, we don’t know what to say. But pregnancy loss is more common than we’d like to think and Rachel Lewis joins Julie Lyles Carr for a compassionate and compelling conversation about how to love others well who are going through loss and how to navigate it for ourselves.
Listen to “Unexpecting with Rachel Lewis” on Spreaker.
Interview Links:
Find Rachel Online: Website | Brave Mamas | Facebook | Instagram |
Book: Unexpecting: Real Talk on Pregnancy Loss
Transcription:
Julie Lyles Carr: You’re listening to the AllMomDoes podcast where you’ll find encouragement, information, and inspiration for the life you’re living, the kids you’re raising, the romance you’re loving, and the faith you’re growing. I’m your host, Julie Lyles Carr. Let’s jump into this week’s episode.
Today on the AllMomDoes podcast, I have Rachel Lewis with me, and I want to give you a little bit of a heads up. If you have little ones in the car, you might want to stick in those headphones for yourself. We’re going to be talking today about a topic that I think is really important. I think it’s also important to make sure that, you know, as the listener, that it might be a bit of a trigger warning for you.
So be sure you’re advised about that. We’re going to be talking about pregnancy loss and I’m really passionate about us digging into this topic because I have to say in my tenure, in women’s ministry, in my own personal experiences, I don’t think this is something that we talk about enough. I don’t think that we really resource people well. I think that it has some things to do with maybe being superstitious about talking about these kinds of things. I think it has to do with not knowing exactly what to say or how to handle it. So I’m really glad that Rachel Lewis is with us and she’s going to help us talk through that. So take a minute, put on those headphones and let’s get into the topic for today.
Rachel, thank you so much for being with me. I really appreciate it.
Rachel Lewis: Thank you so much for including me.
Julie Lyles Carr: Now Rachel, you have written a new book that I, when I saw the title of it, I thought, wow, this is something that we need to be discussing more openly with our community of women, with those who we are experiencing life with.
And the book is called Unexpecting: Real Talk on Pregnancy Loss. You yourself have had five pregnancy losses and I’ve had two, and I agree with you so much as I was reading the opening of your book and your commentary that you have in various places on your website, et cetera. You know, there, aren’t a lot of resources out there for you when you go through something like this and it’s, and it’s puzzling that there are not because the statistics are, and I don’t want to freak anyone out, but this is the statistic that one in four pregnancies will end in miscarriage. And we just kind of avoid some of that. So, Rachel, what was your experience when you first found out that you were going to be going through a miscarriage and you talk about something that you and your husband did to go try to find resources. What was the result of that?
Rachel Lewis: Well, it when we should wait, and we were looking for.
Resources specifically something like the book that I wrote that was for my second loss. My first loss was a ruptured ectopic pregnancy. And so you know, with that came in emergency surgery and it was sort of a whirlwind experience. And so this second, the second loss experience, that was the pregnancy directly after my ectopic and this time I found out from a nurses call that my HCG was dropping and that I would miscarry.
And so obviously, even though it was the second loss, it felt like new territory because it was a different kind of loss. And I didn’t know what to expect from my body. I didn’t know how to prepare what I would need, like what I need something specific at home. And unfortunately, because my loss was right around eight weeks and it was considered an early loss, sort of the only instruction I received was, you know, let us know if you bleed through more than one pad and, and an hour.
And so. I just, I just sort of felt left alone to my own devices to figure out how to go from expecting to unexpecting. I thought, well, you know, there’s a lot of people that labor starts. You know, they always like encourage people to walk or be active or whatever to get labor to start. So I thought, well, maybe the same is true for miscarriage.
And so my husband and I took a date. It’s sad, excuse for a date really, but we walked around the mall and then when I was getting too tired and, and, and I was in pain we stopped at Barnes and noble to get a coffee and a cookie. And we just thought, we’d just sit and look at books for awhile. But of course, you know, This was a very real thing going on in my body and in my heart.
And I couldn’t focus on other things. I really just wanted to have a resource directly in my hands at that moment that I could just talk about, like, or just figure out what to expect and how to prepare and what I might be feeling. And then to coming days and weeks, and unfortunately. You know, there was an entire section on pregnancy, a huge section on pregnancy.
And the only ones that I could find that touched on loss, one of them, the title insinuated that I could have not miscarried had, I just chosen to. And of course I just wanted to Chuck that book across the store. Right. And the other was called taking charge of your fertility. And I will say that that resource is an excellent resource.
I highly recommend. However, that, that didn’t meet me exactly where I was actually going through a loss because I had tried to take charge and trust me, it did not work. So, as we sat there, I felt so strongly in my heart. Like there needs to be this book out there. And so, I determined I was going to write that.
And that was about nine years ago. So, it’s been a journey between then and now, but just a couple weeks ago, I walked into that very same Barnes and noble. And my book was sitting there on the shelf. So that made me very, very happy to know another family who may be going through a similar experience we’ll have a resource I didn’t have.
Julie Lyles Carr: Right. You know, Rachel, I think one of the things that’s interesting to me having gone through the two losses that I did, was we always let people know pretty early into my pregnancies that I was. And there’s this weird rule, right? That it’s so fascinating because I hear young women talking about it today.
It definitely existed at the time that we were building our family and the rule was, well, you know, you don’t tell people you’re pregnant until you’re past the first trimester. And what’s interesting about that idea to me and I’m supportive of whatever anybody wants to do in terms of letting people know that they’re pregnant, I’m not saying that shouldn’t do this or should do that, or I’m not saying any of that, but what’s interesting is this idea that if people don’t know, then if something goes awry, then you’re not going to have to explain it. You’re not going to have to tell about it. And yet at the same time, at least in my case, I mean, there was no way I was going to walk through that and people not know something was up.
I’m the first pregnancy that I lost was right as I transitioned from the first, the second trimester, the second pregnancy that I lost was early on was pretty early. And there was just no way that the people around us and our friends and people in our faith community, it was clear that something was going on in those, both of those situations.
Why do you think that we have culturally sort of developed rule? And particularly when it comes to the loss of an early pregnancy that we sort of act like it could be something that could be swept under the rug, or maybe isn’t that big a deal, which if you go through a miscarriage at that stage, and it does feel like a big deal to you, then it almost feels like what you’re going through is being diminished because we kind of act like, well, you know, up to this point is not exactly, you know, how do you feel about.
Rachel Lewis: Yeah, I have lots of feelings. So I think, you know, part of it is what we shrouded in secrecy. We often also Stroud in shame. And just by the fact that something has to be kept secret or there’s this expectation that it is, I think that it gives this message that if something goes awry, when we shouldn’t have gotten our hopes up to begin with, because we know things like this could happen or we shouldn’t have gotten excited or shared with other people or asked for support. And I think too, because we are so grief illiterate specifically in these kinds of losses that are somewhat intangible or society sort of looks at them as like, not like it’s an invalidated loss because we’re so grateful, literally.
For society’s comfort as a whole, just trying to ignore the issue during the season in which it is most probable sort of protects everyone else except of course the grieving family. But when we think about early pregnancy and I don’t know what your experiences were like early in early pregnancy, but for me early pregnancy was the hardest time.
Even though my babies were not very big. I was incapacitated with morning sickness, you know, there’s, there’s the least amount of support. Some of the biggest amounts of hormonal surges and changes happening. And for many people it can be a very physically and emotionally demanding time. And so asking other people to go through that alone is, I mean, it’s, it’s just, it’s a failing of our society. If, if you want, you know, if you want my opinion, like you said, I don’t think there’s a right or wrong as to when somebody announces, but the fact is is that it should be perfectly acceptable for anyone to announce their pregnancy whenever it feels right for them.
We talk a lot about in, in society today, like being about women’s issues and being able to talk about things like this. And so we really need to be more comfortable with the fact that this happens. You know, and just because something is common doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. Cancer is common. Right. But if someone were to say, I had breast cancer, you wouldn’t say, well, that’s really common. You know, one in four women have breast cancer and you know, maybe you’ll have better luck with your other breast. Like, I don’t know.
Julie Lyles Carr: Yeah. But those are the things we say to women who have, who are experiencing pregnancy loss.
Rachel Lewis: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, I think we need to, as a society, we need to become more grief, literates. We need to become more pregnancy loss literate in order to support women, not only through early pregnancies that are successful, but also early pregnancies that end ends in grief and loss and mourning.
Julie Lyles Carr: Why do you think that we are grief illiterate as a society? And I love that phrase by the way. That’s a really powerful phrase. What do you think it is in our culture that has made us more grief illiterate? I have some ideas on my own. I mean, I think that back in the day, you know, we were just more we’ve, we’ve made things so clinical at this point, when it comes to loss, when it comes to human.
And there’s a lot of things that we don’t see, or we have put behind the curtain or we’ve put with the quote unquote professionals to deal with. So I think that’s one of the ways that a lot of times we don’t have to confront grief a lot of times in the same way. But what else do you think feeds into that idea of grief illiteracy?
Whether we’re talking about pregnancy loss or something.
Rachel Lewis: Like you said, I think part of it is how modern society we, we definitely try to create that barrier, like you said, between death and ourselves. And I think part of that even it’s just like that we can, we have the technology now. We have the resources and the ability now
separate ourselves. So, if we were to look back, you know, a couple hundred years ago, death was a very common scenario. And families, and, you know, when somebody died, they were in the, they were often in the home. Their body was in the home. The children understood it. So, everyone just sort of grew up with knowledge and this acceptance that grief is in death are a part of life. And now we anesthetize the concept of grief and the concept of death because it seems so, you know, horrific and barbaric and so final. And often we try to protect our kids from that. So, our kids aren’t growing up as though this is a normal and natural part of life.
And we ourselves don’t, you know, our generation doesn’t doesn’t have the tools often as well. So, I think that that is part of it. I think we have expectation, and unrealistic expectation of medicine and an unrealistic expectation of the human body. Going back to the cancer analogy. If, if somebody were to come down with cancer, we often rally around them with support as we should.
But there’s this message of, they need to fight. And then there’s this battle. And sometimes if somebody dies, people say, well, they lost their battle. And you know, we, we forget that You know, there’s limitations to a human body. And dying from cancer is not a lack of willpower or lack of gumption or lack of fight.
But we just have this expectation that if you just want something bad enough that you can, you can fight to, to get that. And that’s not true and that’s not true in lots of ways. And pregnancy and pregnancy loss are one of those ways that that shows up. So, I think I, you know, I think there’s that, I think there’s some inconsistency around the value of pregnancies and the value of a unborn life.
And, and I think many of us are getting these conflicting messages that we’re trying to sort through ourselves. And just because probably, like you said, especially in this area, we’ve tried to weave shrouded in secrecy. And so how can we get better at something if, if we aren’t watching other people do it, emulate that for us?
How are kids going to learn if we’re not emulating it for them, showing them how to offer support? So, I mean, there’s things that we could do. I think reading books on grief and loss. That should just be, I feel like just a standard human thing. This is something that you need to understand because even if you know, even if pregnancy loss doesn’t happen to you, I guarantee you’re going to know somebody that’s it, it is going to happen to, and, and you are going to be in a place of support at some point, even if it’s not specific pregnancy loss. People go through unexpected losses all the time. And so, just learning and, and growing and, and trying to immerse yourself in understanding something that maybe you yourself haven’t gone through can, can really go a long way.
Julie Lyles Carr: How do you, you think that we should take care of ourselves when we are in the throes of pregnancy loss? And, and is there, do you see that there may be as a distinction between maybe the first half of a pregnancy where we would consider a situation like that, where there really aren’t a lot of medical heroics that can potentially save a baby’s life.
Versus when someone experiences infant loss, where the child, you know, was perhaps premature and was in NICU and didn’t make it. Or there was something very unexpected at the end and a child was born still born. Like, how do we, what are the things that we can do to help ourselves along the way? Because you’re so right, you know, you get this news and you’re sent home and there is no guidebook for how you’re supposed to conduct yourself, what you’re supposed to do. I think in my case, there were a lot of reassurances on the part of medical practitioners that, but, you know, I mean, give it three months and you guys can try again… you know, there was, there was kind of, it wasn’t that they rushed by it.
I had very compassionate medical providers, but there was that sense of trying to reassure, and I don’t think I was ready for reassurance in that moment. And I didn’t know what to do really, to navigate what I was going through. So what are some important things to remember if you’re facing?
Rachel Lewis: Well, I think the very first thing to remember is that you are not alone.
I personally found my pregnancy losses all five of them and each of them being very, you know, unique an individual loss, but in each one of those, I felt so lonely. And I believe pregnancy loss can be one of the lonelier griefs. And, and part of that is our friends and our family and our loved ones, they are waiting to meet our child.
They feel like they’re sort of in this, I know the baby’s coming, and like I’m, I’m feeling like anticipation and excitement. They may not be feeling the same connection that we are to our pregnancy. Cause they’re still waiting to say hello. And so, when goodbye comes suddenly or unexpectedly at any stage in, you know, in pregnancy, then that, that can be really, really hard because you’re sharing a connection with your baby, that other people maybe aren’t seeing.
And I think the other reason it’s lonely is because people think that you’ve only lost the amount of weeks that you had with your child. Versus the fact that you have lost a lifetime with a child you love. So not only did you know, lose, yes, you, you had all of this time to build up this anticipation for this child that, that you love so much. but it’s not just the loss of a pregnancy,
it is a loss of a lifetime with a baby that you, that you loved and wanted. And. Again, I think that the majority of people around us don’t fully grasp that. And, and there is, like you said, Julie, there’s this message that you can try again, as though people were replaceable, but that’s, you know, that there is no quick fix.
There is no easy fix. And so, so for the loneliness, I would say, you know, a few of you have gone through this last year facing this kind of loss, know that you are not alone. There are a community of bereaved parents all around the world, and we are here for you. We want to support you. We want to love you through this.
We went to accept you exactly where you are. We want to celebrate your baby’s life with you, the time that you had with your baby, or, you know, we want to look at the pictures of their little precious toes and, you know, we went to honor there forever role in your life with you even if they have even if they have died.
And so, so I would say, please, you know, please know that you’re not alone. And then for people who are taking care of themselves and in this unexpected loss at later stages or earlier stages, one to get professional support, and I don’t just mean talk to your pastor. And the reason for that is there are so much that is going on, even chemically and hormonally in your body that is affecting how you will be able to process this loss. And pastors while they can be amazing spiritual support, don’t have the training and these kinds of areas to really help you understand what is going on in your body and in your mind.
And so I highly recommend a licensed professional therapist. Specifically, if possible, specifically one who can deal in trauma or pregnancy loss you know, our women’s issues. So I would recommend that I would also say cling to the people that are supportive around you. Do you have two chapters in the book that talk about finding your support and then also how to handle those hurtful words, because I think of all the things that sort of impede good, healthy support is are those hurtful words and trying to navigate around those. And so You know, try to cling to the support that you can, and find the places where you and your story are honored just as they are. You are, you are allowed to feel, however you need to feel you were allowed to express your grief and your morning and your loss.
And even your continuing parenting of your baby, even though it looks so different than what you expected. You are allowed to do those things what, in, in ways that feel right to you. So, finding that community of support can be a really huge, like, I guess, a piece of, of, of your journey through this loss to really help you just as you move forward.
Julie Lyles Carr: Right. I, you know, I think one of the things on the other side of getting this kind of news that is very difficult to navigate sometimes are well-meaning people, whether that is in our friends, community, our faith community, within our family, wherever that comes from, who really say, honestly, Rachel, just some really dumb things.
I’m just really, really uninformed, you know, and sometimes out of a place of trying to help and, and being distressed, it seen you being distressed and sometimes out of a place of just really, just just dumb, dumb, dumb. So for that listener who hasn’t maybe experienced this for herself, but is probably going to have, you know, a friend or someone in her, her experience, who’s going to walk through this, what are some key things to keep in mind when you’re trying to respond as a friend, a family member, a part of someone’s faith community, in terms of things to say and things to not say, when someone discloses to you that they’re experiencing pregnancy.
Rachel Lewis: That is, that is such a good question. And if I could just talk about the principle really quick of, of what a platitude is.
And so a platitude is basically a short and easy saying that often has been told to us or we’ve internalized, or it’s an acceptable saying in culture. And it usually provides some kind of answer or what we perceive to be, or we hope to be, comfort to the person who is hurting. And so when we’re, when we’re looking at a situation such as pregnancy loss, we’re looking at an unfixable situation, right?
We can’t fix how you know, the, the fact that, that the baby has died. It’s, it’s sort of this overwhelming loss. And so when we look at somebody else’s loss like that, We might feel this, this need in ourselves to fix the problem. And since we can’t, then we want to fix the grief, or what we perceive to be fixing the grief.
And so, we may say things like it’s time that you moved on. And, you know, perhaps we mean, well, but I think what it actually does is that hurts the bereaved and the only person that comforts is ourselves, because it gives us a feeling like we’ve done something. A feeling like we’ve helped, even when we haven’t.
So things like these kinds of attitudes so you need to move on, that is a very typical one. That’s actually sort of rooted in Freudian theory that there is a, when we lose a person, that there is a gap that is forever in our lives. And so the only way for us to fully become, you know, a full human again is to completely forget the memory of that person, and for like sever that relationship entirely in order to make room for another person to come in. But we all know that love grows, right?
So we can hold onto memories. We can hold onto people in relationships and still have plenty of room to grow in relationship with other people. So when that that obviously hurts for somebody to tell somebody else to move on set, gives the message that their grief is wrong. Their process is wrong. And they’re just doing all of this wrong.
Another hurtful thing is at least, I think anytime that you want to start saying, at least, you’re introducing a comparison and let’s be honest, there is no, at least when it comes to the death of a baby. There’s none. Not at all. And. So, so that is, that is a really hurtful thing because you’re asking somebody to forget their grief and instead embrace gratitude. And gratitude and grief can co-exist together.
Someone can be immensely grateful for all the blessings in their lives for their living children. Even possibly for the hope of a future pregnancy, if that, if that’s in store for them, while also simultaneously deeply grieving the loss of what is and the dreams and the hopes that they had attached to that pregnancy and that baby.
Yeah. So, there is no at least. Really common one is sorry, I’m looking cause I have a whole heck of a whole list of these I’m trying to find. I do. Okay. How about, how about you can always try again because that’s one that you, that you recommended or that you had said people had said to you. And again, people are not replaceable.
And you, you may want another baby down the line, but, but you really want that baby. You really wanted the baby that you had. And so. Not everybody can try again. And you truly have no idea. You could, you could have no problems with fertility up until that point and then all of a sudden find yourself with secondary infertility, which is what happened to us.
So, you don’t know what’s in store for other people, so you can’t, you can’t fix it like that. The whole everything happens for a reason. There often is no reason. Lots of times they can’t even find the medical reason. And Sometimes I think in the faith community, we like to think that everything that happens is God’s will.
And so, we, we claim to things like this, that there is just somehow some kind of reason for this loss to have happened, but you know, the Bible doesn’t ever tell us that everything that happens on this earth was God’s will. It tells us to pray for God’s will to happen on earth, which naturally insinuates that not everything that happens is from the will of God.
And so, you know, be really careful about what you speak as the will of God. Because last I checked, you know, you’re, you’re not his spokesperson. And you know, and that, that specific thing is not in the Bible. So yeah, I would just steer, steer clear of that. And really, if you lost your child, would there ever be a reason that you would accept?
I mean, even if you knew what had happened, it would be so hard. It would be so hard to say, you know, this, this is the reason it happened. I’m going to caveat that and say that many people develop legacies for their babies. I know I did this book as a part of my legacy for for my baby Olivia, and it is an expression and extension of my grief and a way in which I feel like I can give meaning and purpose to her life. But it is not the reason.
Why she died. Yeah. So just to clarify that, so I would say anything that sort of makes you feel better or provides an answer to this loss or is instructing them on how to grieve, steer clear of those things. Probably not a great idea. And it really can we just admit that that, that actually can let off a lot of pressure from you because you don’t have to say the exact right thing and you don’t have to give an answer for that.
You can let that go. You can say something as simple as, I don’t know what to say, but I want you to know I care. Or I don’t, I don’t have an answer for you, but I want you to know I’m here to listen. Or I want you to know that I miss your baby with you. I want you to know that I will be here. Even simple things like I want to bring you a meal.
Would Tuesday or Thursday be better. This idea of wrapping in, in support, hearing them, seeing them as, as Dr. Bessel van der Kolk says a true social support is reciprocity that, that seeing and hearing, holding someone else in your mind and offering them a visceral feeling of safety. That’s what you can do.
So use those principles whenever you’re facing somebody going through a hard time and say, how can I see them? Hear them, give them that visceral feeling of safety and let them know that they’re on my mind.
Julie Lyles Carr: That’s beautiful. You know, my sister-in-law came with my first miscarriage and I had two little girls at the time and she came into town just to be supportive and kind of took over with the girls and in her quiet way.
And my sister-in-law’s incredible, Jill, she didn’t say a lot. She just came alongside me and helped with the kids. Flew in from Indiana. We were living in Oklahoma at the time and it was huge. It was one of the most comforting things I experienced. And I can’t tell you Rachel, anything that she ever really said.
And I know she didn’t say anything wrong because I think I would probably remember that because when you’re so raw, the things that people do that are loving and meet you right where you’re at stick. And the things that people say out of a desperateness or just random also stick. And that place that you’re talking about, where she came and extended to me, a place of, of safety of practicality.
To come in and being with the girls, that was really huge. And it’s, it’s something that I want to model for the people in my life. And it definitely is something that I’ve always remembered. Well, Rachel, I’m so thankful that you have taken this legacy to Olivia and you have used it in this way for Unexpecting: Real Talk on Pregnancy Loss. Rachel, where can listeners find you, your community, all of the great resources that you have?
Rachel Lewis: Well, I do have a online, called brave mamas. And it is for any woman who is going through the grief of a child in any capacity. So, whether that is through infertility or that is pregnancy loss or infant loss, or later at a child loss, it could be through adoption or foster care. So, if you are grieving the loss of a child in any capacity, that is a safe or at least I hope a safe place where you can come and get support and really feel wrapped up in love from other people who have been there. You can also find my blog at thelewisnote.com. There are some specific pregnancy loss options, not options. What’s the word I’m looking for? Information and support. That’s what I’m trying to say at unexpectingbook.com and actually in one of them is a free chapter called How to Support a Loved One Through Pregnancy Loss. And you can download that from the website, unexpectingbook.com. And that actually is going to probably more thoroughly answer the question that you asked Julie, about what to say or what not to say, and really how to offer that practical support.
Julie Lyles Carr: Excellent. Yeah. And we’ll get those to Rebecca the content coordinator, so she can get those into the show notes, which she just so loving puts together each and every week, so that listeners can find all of those great resources there. Rachel Lewis, thank you so much for speaking out on this very important topic, for using your experience and your wisdom to help equip us to do a better job when we ourselves, or when someone we love is going through pregnancy loss.
Thanks so much for being with me today.
Rachel Lewis: Thank you so much for having me.
Julie Lyles Carr: Check out the show notes for all the links, info and other goodness from this week’s episode, with thank you to our content coordinator, Rebecca. I’ve got a request, please go like and leave a review wherever you get your podcast. It really does make a difference in helping other people find the show. And I’ll see you next week here at the AllMomDoes podcast.